The flare saga continues

[Atavar]

Look at my picture of the case on the Lee stem. You probably don’t have to ram any case all the way to the top/end. But you’re still wrapped around the axle on the long case/short case thing.

Yes, because longer cases give me wider flares.
I’ll do an experiment tonight. I’ll size some cases and trim a few to .888 and a few to .908 (SAAMI limits), expand them using the Hornady Custom expander and measure the flares.

 

[jmorris]

Doing so little flare is all well and good, but what happens when you get a case that is .015” longer than what you set the expander up for? Don’t you get a larger flare?

Sure but as I posted in your last thread on the subject, .010” in depth change results in .003” in diameter change. That’s not what was happening with the cases you posted in the OP.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/pistol-case-length.918974/page-2

Why it might be time worth spending to set the measuring tools down for a second and just see what is going on. You already noticed the bench/contact. Might pick up on something else that’s not as obvious, that elude your measuring tools.

 

[Atavar]

Correct. That’s why I want to experiment.
Perhaps there is a problem with my expander instead of my crimper. (Or the way I am using them).

 

[CQB45ACP]

Yes, because longer cases give me wider flares.
I’ll do an experiment tonight. I’ll size some cases and trim a few to .888 and a few to .908 (SAAMI limits), expand them using the Hornady Custom expander and measure the flares.

Why not try one or more of the experiments others have suggested? Seems to me you’re asking a lot of questions, getting a lot of responses, and ignoring them all.

 

[doubleh]

That seating die looks like it has a sharp edge on the mouth, it should have a smooth transition. Do you have a way to deburr it? Either by spinning it on a lathe or maybe a Cartex Wheel and dremel? The die should be hard and not easy to remove too much.

I agree and it would be my first thing to do for a solution to the problem.

 

[jmorris]

Correct. That’s why I want to experiment.
Perhaps there is a problem with my expander instead of my crimper. (Or the way I am using them).

You certainly want to figure out what is causing this, as it’s not the fault of a few thousandths in case length.



I just grabbed a hand full of brass and found the longest and shortest then flared them on my 45 ACP press.

Long case.



Short case.



And after flare.

 

[higgite]

Roll? No, it tapers per Lee.
View attachment 1151656

From Lee’s description of carbide factory crimp die for pistol calibers:
This die applies a roll style crimp. The adjusting screw quickly and easily sets the desired amount of crimp.
https://leeprecision.com/handgun-carbide-factory-crimp-die

Lee’s handgun taper crimp die has no adjusting screw.
https://leeprecision.com/handgun-taper-crimp-die

Hopefully, OP will post a side view pic of his die and identifying marks so we can know for sure what die he has. Otherwise, I'm backing out. None of this is adding up.

 

[CQB45ACP]

From Lee’s description of carbide factory crimp die for pistol calibers:
This die applies a roll style crimp. The adjusting screw quickly and easily sets the desired amount of crimp.
https://leeprecision.com/handgun-carbide-factory-crimp-die

Lee’s handgun taper crimp die has no adjusting screw.
https://leeprecision.com/handgun-taper-crimp-die

Hopefully, OP will post a side view pic of his die and identifying marks so we can know for sure what die he has. Otherwise, I'm backing out. None of this is adding up.

Well I’ll be a monkey’s uncle. A thousand apologies to you and others!! Who knew I’ve been roll crimping all along?

Edit: at this link on Lees website it says taper crimp for auto loading handguns
https://support.leeprecision.net/en/knowledgebase/article/carbide-factory-crimp-die-crimp-style

 

[Atavar]

From Lee’s description of carbide factory crimp die for pistol calibers:
This die applies a roll style crimp. The adjusting screw quickly and easily sets the desired amount of crimp.
https://leeprecision.com/handgun-carbide-factory-crimp-die

Lee’s handgun taper crimp die has no adjusting screw.
https://leeprecision.com/handgun-taper-crimp-die

Hopefully, OP will post a pic of his die and identifying marks so we can know for sure what die he has.

Hmm. I thought I did post them. I wonder what thread I put them in.

OK, this got in my head so I went out to the bench to try it. Cases measuring .88 set to flare to .475. Without moving the expander die cases measuring .95 flared to .495.
When my crimp die only accepts flares to .479 that variance is excessive.



expander die

 

[Atavar]

Well I’ll be a monkey’s uncle. A thousand apologies to you and others!!

No worries. I was hoping you were right.
I am sure my problem is I am doing something stupid, I just want to understand so I can fix it.

 

[Tom Myers]

You could just order out an N.O.E Stepped Powder Thru Expansion Die of the correct size for your sized bullet and forget about case length and flare diameter.
The N.O.E. Expansion Die will size the case neck at 0.002" under your bullet diameter and expand (NOT Flare) the case mouth to 0.002" over your bullet diameter.
Differences in case length are of no consequence as the length of the step expander is approximately 0.1 inch in length.
Another bonus is that the N.O.E. expander portion sizes the case neck down into the case for the full length of your bullet so the un-expanded portion of the case does not re-size the bullet during the seating process.
A one-time chamfer of the inner diameter of the case neck will eliminate scraping of bullet lead or coating .
The Expansion dies, spacers and Over Travel Ring are designed to be used in either the Lee Long or Short Expansion Dies . In your case, you would use the Lee short Powder through Expansion Die.
When ordering, be sure to specify the expander portion as 0.002" under your bullet size and the Stepped portion as 0.002" over your bullet diameter.
Order the complete die, 2 spacers, Over-travel-ring and expander set for your caliber, Adjust the die the recommended turns above contact withe the shell holder/plate and you are good to go.
Be sure to select the correct size for your bullet from the little box that says Pistol Expander Size

[click this link]
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/sho...auto-match-powder-through-expander-kit-w-die/

Attached are images of the parts and assembly of the setup
.
Hope this Helps.
Respectfully,
Tom Myers

 

[CQB45ACP]

No worries. I was hoping you were right.
I am sure my problem is I am doing something stupid, I just want to understand so I can fix it.

not apologizing to you but to @higgite

You are doing something wrong in my view but I’m not saying it’s stupid

 

[Atavar]

Again, max appreciation to all for sticking with me on this. I really want to learn.
I am sorry if I sound like I am arguing when I am really asking.

 

[Atavar]

You could just order out an N.O.E Stepped Powder Thru Expansion Die of the correct size for your sized bullet and forget about case length and flare diameter.
The N.O.E. Expansion Die will size the case neck at 0.002" under your bullet diameter and expand (NOT Flare) the case mouth to 0.002" over your bullet diameter.
Differences in case length are of no consequence as the length of the step expander is approximately 0.1 inch in length.
Another bonus is that the N.O.E. expander portion sizes the case neck down into the case for the full length of your bullet so the un-expanded portion of the case does not re-size the bullet during the seating process.
A one-time chamfer of the inner diameter of the case neck will eliminate and scraping of bullet lead or coating .
The Expansion dies, spacers and Over Travel Ring are designed to be used in either the Lee Long or Short Expansion Dies . In your case, you would use the Lee short Powder through Expansion Die.
When ordering, be sure to specify the expander portion as 0.002" under your bullet size and the Stepped portion as 0.002" over your bullet diameter.
Order the complete die, 2 spacers, Over-travel-ring and expander set for your caliber, Adjust the die the recommended turns above contact withe the shell holder/plate and you are good to go.
Copy this link into your browser to Open th N.O.E. Set
Be sure to select the correct size for your bullet from the little box that says Pistol Expander Size
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/sho...ers/45-gap-powder-through-expander-kit-w-die/


Attached are images of the parts and assembly of the setup.
Hope this Helps.
Respectfully,
Tom Myers

That is sort of my plan. I ordered a Lyman M expander. Hopefully this will all be moot when it arrives Wednesday.
I still appreciate everyone’s efforts to educate me.

 

[Atavar]

Two things for conversations sake.
I have the same set of Hornady Custom Grade dies for 9mm and don’t have this problem. Of course the 9mm set has a taper crimp die instead of a roll crimp die.
Why Hornady put a roll crimp die in a .45 acp die set I don’t know, as there are virtually zero bullets for .45 acp with a cannelure.

 

[AJC1]

https://noebulletmolds.com/site/pro...oading/expanders/expander-plug-pistol/page/2/
Lot of good options based on your bullet size

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

And no threads at the top for the adjuster.

Okay, so that’s a Lee Handgun Taper Crimp Die, not an FCD? Sorry, from the description and pic I thought it was an FCD with the stem removed. I thought wrong.

Here’s what Lee says about use of that die, “Lee Taper Crimp Die, overcomes crimp problems caused by poor die design. Offers little or no advantage when used with 1986 or newer Lee Dies as the crimp angle is already a modified taper crimp. Jacketed bullets must have a crimp groove.”

 

[CQB45ACP]

Okay, so that’s a Lee Handgun Taper Crimp Die, not an FCD? Sorry, from the description and pic I thought it was an FCD with the stem removed. I thought wrong.

Here’s what Lee says about use of that die, “Lee Taper Crimp Die, overcomes crimp problems caused by poor die design. Offers little or no advantage when used with 1986 or newer Lee Dies as the crimp angle is already a modified taper crimp. Jacketed bullets must have a crimp groove.”

Don’t worry about that, it’s all misdirection and obfuscation anyway. This is an operator error issue not equipment problem. Moreover it begins waay before any sort of crimping becomes necessary. I say this with a healty dose of sarcasm.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Don’t worry about that, it’s all misdirection and obfuscation anyway. This is an operator error issue not equipment problem. Moreover it begins waay before any sort of crimping becomes necessary. I say this with a healty dose of sarcasm.

99.999% of all handloading problems are “operator error.” It’s like I said in another thread, handloading problems are like plane crashes: it’s always pilot error.

The few equipment issues are easily solved with a component change and those are the most obvious, easiest to diagnose problems. If operator error was easy to diagnose, the forum would be nothing but puppy pictures and discussions about drool cups.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Some of you have been following the problems I have been having getting usable flare and crimp repeatability.
I am sure there are multiple things I have set up wrong and multiple things I am doing wrong. I am self taught and I know there are things I need to unlearn.
The latest thing I discovered was that my press ram was impacting my bench just before camover.I cut a notch out of the bench frame to cure that. Eventually I will fit a plate as a more permanent solution. It now continues through camover and should give me more repeatable results.
View attachment 1151585
To check to see if that helped I took a random sample of 20 cases from my “assorted” bin and sized them. The measured from .882” (left) to .893” (right). Columns are .001” with a .003 gap at the start.
I set up the expander die for the shortest case to flare to .472 which gives a minimum ID of .460 to allow seating lead bullets.
View attachment 1151586
In sizing the batch the flares ranged up to .488 with the longest cases. This is a problem because my taper crimp die will only allow a back diameter of .479 to enter the die without catching. If I flare any less it shaves lead when seating.
The only two solutions I can think of are to set the factory crimp in the seating die to reduce the flare to below .480 before moving to the taper crimp die or to modify the feed ramp of the taper crimp die to accept wider flares.
View attachment 1151590
View attachment 1151591
Does the inlet to my taper crimp die look normal to you or does it need work?
Thank you for taking all the time to read this. I anxiously await your feedback.

I’m sure this has already been asked but I can’t seem to find it or an answer: Why exactly are you using a Lee Taper Crimp Die instead of taper crimping in the Hornady seating die, as per the die’s instructions? Also, I hope you understand the Lee crimping dies - both the Handgun CD and the Factory CD - are intended to be used AFTER the seating die has removed the neck expansion/flare. Belling the case mouth is obviously not interfering with the seating die so try adjusting it so the taper crimp removes the bell and taper crimps. Or, if you want to use the Lee taper crimp die adjust the seating die so it only removes/reduces the bell and then taper crimp in a separate operation.

 

[jmorris]

Cases measuring .88 set to flare to .475. Without moving the expander die cases measuring .95 flared to .495.

OK, that’s not a few thousandths difference in length.

.95-.88= .070. That much is pretty visible.



The ones I posted above were .008” different and 8 is more than a few, at least to Mrs. Morris, when we are talking about beers.



What is the head stamp on the .95” length 45 ACP cases you have?

 

[higgite]

Cases measuring .88 set to flare to .475. Without moving the expander die cases measuring .95 flared to .495.

If you have 45ACP cases that are .95" in length, you better save them. They may be collector's items. Just pulling your leg. And thanks for posting the die pics. That does look like a pistol taper crimp die as you said it was.

But seriously, no 45 ACP case is going to be .95" long. Are you sure that one is 45 ACP and not something else? Or is it possible that you're measuring a primed case with the primer not fully seated?

And pay no attention to folks who recommend a powder through expander. Those are for use with case activated powder measures, usually found on progressive presses. Your new expander should be fine unless you actually are using a case activated measure on your Rock Chucker.

 

[CQB45ACP]

Again, max appreciation to all for sticking with me on this. I really want to learn.
I am sorry if I sound like I am arguing when I am really asking.

No, it sounds like you’re asking but you’re really arguing

 

[CQB45ACP]

If you have 45ACP cases that are .95" in length, you better save them. They may be collector's items. Just pulling your leg. And thanks for posting the die pics. That does look like a pistol taper crimp die as you said it was.

But seriously, no 45 ACP case is going to be .95" long. Are you sure that one is 45 ACP and not something else? Or is it possible that you're measuring a primed case with the primer not fully seated?

And pay no attention to folks who recommend a powder through expander. Those are for use with case activated powder measures, usually found on progressive presses. Your new expander should be fine unless you actually are using a case activated measure on your Rock Chucker.

I want a picture of a one inch long 45acp case.

 

[AJC1]

I want a picture of a one inch long 45acp case.

Wouldn't that really be a 45 win mag???