The flare saga continues

[Atavar]

Some of you have been following the problems I have been having getting usable flare and crimp repeatability.
I am sure there are multiple things I have set up wrong and multiple things I am doing wrong. I am self taught and I know there are things I need to unlearn.
The latest thing I discovered was that my press ram was impacting my bench just before camover.I cut a notch out of the bench frame to cure that. Eventually I will fit a plate as a more permanent solution. It now continues through camover and should give me more repeatable results.

To check to see if that helped I took a random sample of 20 cases from my “assorted” bin and sized them. The measured from .882” (left) to .893” (right). Columns are .001” with a .003 gap at the start.
I set up the expander die for the shortest case to flare to .472 which gives a minimum ID of .460 to allow seating lead bullets.

In sizing the batch the flares ranged up to .488 with the longest cases. This is a problem because my taper crimp die will only allow a back diameter of .479 to enter the die without catching. If I flare any less it shaves lead when seating.
The only two solutions I can think of are to set the factory crimp in the seating die to reduce the flare to below .480 before moving to the taper crimp die or to modify the feed ramp of the taper crimp die to accept wider flares.


Does the inlet to my taper crimp die look normal to you or does it need work?
Thank you for taking all the time to read this. I anxiously await your feedback.

 

[Atavar]

I have submitted a support ticket to Lee Precision asking them to look at pictures of my taper crimp die and see if it appears normal.
It will be interesting to get their feedback.

 

[NMexJim]

Here is a SAAMI drawing for .45 ACP. The case length is .898 with an allowance of -.010, so your lengths are good. However, I don’t know of too many folks that are too concerned w/ case length. I have run on a very few cases that were too long, but very few. I don’t much worry about it and don’t worry about trimming.

When you say you flare to .472, I assume we’re talking about OD. The drawing says .473 is where a case mouth should be with a seated bullet, so you’re really not getting any flare at all. Then, you say you’re getting a flare of .488. That’s a little confusing.

Let’s try this: your bullet diameter should be somewhere around .453. The bullet diameter plus twice the case thickness at the case mouth should come up to about .473 - the finished OD of the taper crimp size. That’s a difference of .020, and that would give around .010 case thickness on a side. All of this will vary a thou or so.

You said that a flare of .479 catches which I take to mean that your case won’t enter the seating die. That’s a little tight, but that’s still a flare of .006. If your bullet is .453/.454 then you should not need a lot more flare.

Here’s what I do. I take a sized case and measure the case mouth OD. I note this for my info. I then set my expander to flare about .005 over that and see what that measurement is and if a bullet will start. If I need more flare, I go up gradually until the base of the bullet just enters the case mouth. If I shave lead, then a bit more flare. Don’t worry too much about long and short cases. Try this way and see if that works.

 

[Atavar]

I try to set for very little flare on the shortest case in the batch. Just enough to seat the bullet as you said.
Longer cases will flare wider because the case mouth pushes further on to the expander.
The biggest problem I am having is that the flare will vary enough to sometimes get so wide (>.480") that it will not enter the crimp die. Think of coming to a stop with a clunk like closing a metal door with the deadbolt already extended.

 

[NMexJim]

I try to set for very little flare on the shortest case in the batch. Just enough to seat the bullet as you said.
Longer cases will flare wider because the case mouth pushes further on to the expander.
The biggest problem I am having is that the flare will vary enough to sometimes get so wide (>.480") that it will not enter the crimp die. Think of coming to a stop with a clunk like closing a metal door with the deadbolt already extended.

Again, don’t worry about setting flare by case length. Take a case, size it, prime it, go to the flare station. Have the flare die screwed out. Screw it down until it just makes contact with the brass. Lower your ram. Tighten thing down and then flare the case. Take the case in hand and try a bullet. If not enough flare, un-tighten and screw a little more down. Rinse and repeat until the bullet just starts.

what's the diameter of your bullet? Thickness of your brass on one side - not the OD, just the case wall thickness?

 

[NMexJim]

Not sure what set you have. Lee is a little different but not too much.

https://leeprecision.com/files/instruct/Pistol3.pdf

 

[NMexJim]

I would doubt that you have a bad Lee die set. Call ‘‘em up and get them to guide you through. That’s free.

 

[Atavar]

Again, don’t worry about setting flare by case length. Take a case, size it, prime it, go to the flare station. Have the flare die screwed out. Screw it down until it just makes contact with the brass. Lower your ram. Tighten thing down and then flare the case. Take the case in hand and try a bullet. If not enough flare, un-tighten and screw a little more down. Rinse and repeat until the bullet just starts.

what's the diameter of your bullet? Thickness of your brass on one side - not the OD, just the case wall thickness?

Exactly what I do.
My bullets are coated LRN .452, so with a .010 case wall thickness I need to flare the case to a titch over .472 OD so as not to shave lead.
The problem comes when after adjusting and flaring the first case, if the next case is longer than the first one it flares wider than the first one.
Seating the bullet further widens the flare as the bullet itself acts as an expander.
If I measure the inside diameter of the bore (inside the forcing cone) in the taper crimp die it measures .479".
If the final flare diameter of the case is >.479" it slams in to the forcing cone (? Is there a better term) at the entry to the die and will not let the case enter the taper crimp die.
I apologize vehemently if I am being a total dunderhead and frustrating you. It is certainly frustrating me. Please have patience.
If you use a taper crimp die when you are at the bench next could you please take a couple minutes and grab a picture of the entry orifice to the die?
At this point I am suspecting that the machining of the forcing cone on mine is a bit rough and there is an rch of a lip at the inner diameter of the cone.
In the very few photos of Lee taper crimp dies I can find showing the inside of the die entry that lip appears to be a secondary radiused bevel instead of a lip. The pictures I have found are not good detail of the area.
On mine the bevel of the forcing cone itself appears to be a series of micro-steppes instead on a smooth polished bevel that I would expect.
Perhaps I am chasing a red herring.

 

[Atavar]

From the instructions for the taper crimp die —
L E E TAPERCRIMPDIE
The Lee Taper Crimp Diegreatlyimproves theaccuracy of ammunition reloaded with other brands of diesand older Lee Dies. There islittle or noadvantage when used with 1986 or newer Lee Diesas the crimp angle is already a modified taper crimp.
All cases vary slightly in length and thickness. This difference affects crimp uniformity directly in proportion of the taper of the crimp. The slow taper of these dies are relatively unaffected by normal case variances. Therefore,all cases receive a uniform crimp which improves accuracy by providing a uniform start pressure.
INSTRUCTIONS
TAPER CRIMP DIES are used to crimp the bullet in place after it has been seated with your regular bullet seating die. Your bullet seating die should be adjusted to seat the bullet tothe desired depth without any crimp.
• Adjust the taper crimp die until it touchesthe case mouthand then turn it in 1/2turn more. Fine adjust tosuitand finger tighten the lockring.
• When removing the die from the press, always loosen the lock ring. This insures the lock ring will maintain its setting.

 

[chamokaneman]

If the large cases fit into the crimp ring on your seating die I would just use it and not the dedicated taper crmip die. I believe I have these same dies in 45 ACP. I'll take a look at them when I'm home this afternoon and see what mine measure.

 

[BBarn]

Set the standard seating/crimp die to remove enough of the flare on the longer cases during the seating operation to fit into the TC die.

 

[ballman6711]

Set the standard seating/crimp die to remove enough of the flare on the longer cases during the seating operation to fit into the TC die.

This seems like a good and simple solution to me. Simply screw the die down a bit and it will remove some of the flare on the longer cases. Keep in mind that you will have to back the seating stem out by the same amount or you will have a shorter COL (deeper seated bullet).

chris

 

[Atavar]

If the large cases fit into the crimp ring on your seating die I would just use it and not the dedicated taper crmip die. I believe I have these same dies in 45 ACP. I'll take a look at them when I'm home this afternoon and see what mine measure.

I had a similar problem with the factory crimp on the Hornady Custom grade dies, except with the roll crimp it would go so far as to cut the coating on the bullets or actually deform the bullets on longer cases.
That is what led me to buy a taper crimp die in the first place.

 

[Blue68f100]

Some of you have been following the problems I have been having getting usable flare and crimp repeatability.
I am sure there are multiple things I have set up wrong and multiple things I am doing wrong. I am self taught and I know there are things I need to unlearn.
The latest thing I discovered was that my press ram was impacting my bench just before camover.I cut a notch out of the bench frame to cure that. Eventually I will fit a plate as a more permanent solution. It now continues through camover and should give me more repeatable results.
View attachment 1151585
To check to see if that helped I took a random sample of 20 cases from my “assorted” bin and sized them. The measured from .882” (left) to .893” (right). Columns are .001” with a .003 gap at the start.
I set up the expander die for the shortest case to flare to .472 which gives a minimum ID of .460 to allow seating lead bullets.
View attachment 1151586
In sizing the batch the flares ranged up to .488 with the longest cases. This is a problem because my taper crimp die will only allow a back diameter of .479 to enter the die without catching. If I flare any less it shaves lead when seating.
The only two solutions I can think of are to set the factory crimp in the seating die to reduce the flare to below .480 before moving to the taper crimp die or to modify the feed ramp of the taper crimp die to accept wider flares.
View attachment 1151590
View attachment 1151591
Does the inlet to my taper crimp die look normal to you or does it need work?
Thank you for taking all the time to read this. I anxiously await your feedback.

That seating die looks like it has a sharp edge on the mouth, it should have a smooth transition. Do you have a way to deburr it? Either by spinning it on a lathe or maybe a Cartex Wheel and dremel? The die should be hard and not easy to remove too much.

From what I see your doing setting up your dies correct. I always setup for the shortest, and never a problem with my Hornady dies.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

That seating die looks like it has a sharp edge on the mouth, it should have a smooth transition. Do you have a way to deburr it? Either by spinning it on a lathe or maybe a Cartex Wheel and dremel? The die should be hard and not easy to remove too much.

From what I see your doing setting up your dies correct. I always setup for the shortest, and never a problem with my Hornady dies.

The die shown is an FCD.

 

[CQB45ACP]

I’ve tried to replicate your measurements and can’t come close to those large numbers.

But I think numbers are your first boogeyman. You’ve tried to figure out in your mind what can and cannot work to the thousands and are getting hung up on them. Forget them for a second.

Here are four pictures showing a flared case to finished round in a gauge. I measured them for YOUR benefit. I never do this.

Bullet is a .452 plated. (Forget the lead shaving for the time being—that’s your second boogeyman. Get some plated or FMJs to work with.)

First picture—Case is a HRTRS flared to .4715-.472 OD. It’s shown on a Lee stem but I used a Redding to flare it. Same dif. Flare is barely noticeable. That’s how I typically do it.

I have no clue how long case is. Forgot to measure it but I NEVER do anyway. That’s your third boogeyman—varying case lengths cause wildly different flaring. No, not in a properly set up die they don’t. Reread your instructions as you set up die.

Second—shows bullet sitting inside case—despite minimal flare, bullet is firmly in place. It wouldn’t shave plating and possibly not lead but don’t worry about that for now.

Third—Completed dummy round fully seated to 1.260”. OD is .4725ish. No shaving of plating. NO CRIMP.

Fourth—Completed round in Wilson cartridge gauge without any crimp.

I’m no reloading genius. I do basic stuff and keep it that way until I’m ready to move on.

I suggest you do the same—go back to basics. I mean no disrespect here. Good luck.

 

[higgite]

The die shown is an FCD.

If so, something is amiss. The Lee FCD for pistols has an adjusting screw in the top of it and does a roll crimp, not a taper crimp.

Atavar, can you post a side view pic of your die and any identifying markings?

 

[Bill M.]

" was impacting my bench just before camover"

why camover when crimping? Or any other operation? I think I set everything up as a hard stop and it seems to work just fine.

 

[jmorris]

I set up the expander die for the shortest case to flare to .472 which gives a minimum ID of .460 to allow seating lead bullets.

In sizing the batch the flares ranged up to .488 with the longest cases. This is a problem because my taper crimp die will only allow a back diameter of .479 to enter the die without catching. If I flare any less it shaves lead when seating.

You could be confusing yourself dealing with ID and OD measurements without taking into account various wall thicknesses and would tend to agree with, now that you have played with measuring instruments for awhile and they haven’t gotten you where you want to be, try the “what actually works” method.

For seating without shaving, you don’t need a monster flare, you need a seating die that keeps the bullet straight.

If the bullet doesn’t match the seater and tries to go in crooked, all the flare in the world might work but as you know, your not going to get that into a crimp die.



This is how little flare I use with my coated 45 ACP rounds, the case on the right is awaiting “crimp” and the one behind it is next for a bullet to be seated.



I am the first guy that tries to get everyone to quantify things but I’d probably suggest you set the calipers down for a little bit and see what actually works in your firearm with the components and tools you have. Then you can go back and measure and record where that is. For some people that easier that going for some number and we are all different.

For crimp, I would suggest doing little more than it takes to “plunk” the round into the barrel. If you lower the crimp die too much, you will swage the bullet, like these that are ruined. Note the base of the bullet has been swaged by the case to a smaller diameter.



If you don’t over do it on the crimp that doesn’t occur.



The one on the bottom here is as far as I would go. After that reasonable accuracy can be tough to get.

 

[Atavar]

If so, something is amiss. The Lee FCD for pistols has an adjusting screw in the top of it and does a roll crimp, not a taper crimp.

Atavar, can you post a side view pic of your die and any identifying markings?

Happy to. I believe this is a taper crimp. As stated the FCD has an adjusting screw to control the mandrels. This die is pretty much an empty tapered bore with a forcing cone at one end.
What looks like a roll crimp former in the last two pictures is deeper in the die than a max length .45 acp case.
I am sure much of the bad finish inside is due to thousands of abusive crimps. I know if a bore looked that bad it would go back to the factory or the recycle bin. Lol

 

[CQB45ACP]

If so, something is amiss. The Lee FCD for pistols has an adjusting screw in the top of it and does a roll crimp, not a taper crimp.

Atavar, can you post a side view pic of your die and any identifying markings?

Roll? No, it tapers per Lee.

But I don’t see the FCD’s carbide ring. And of course it’s guts.


edit: I’m incorrect on taper v roll

 

[CQB45ACP]

Happy to. I believe this is a taper crimp. As stated the FCD has an adjusting screw to control the mandrels. This die is pretty much an empty tapered bore with a forcing cone at one end.
What looks like a roll crimp former in the last two pictures is deeper in the die than a max length .45 acp case.
I am sure much of the bad finish inside is due to thousands of abusive crimps. I know if a bore looked that bad it would go back to the factory or the recycle bin. Lol
View attachment 1151645 View attachment 1151646 View attachment 1151647 View attachment 1151648 View attachment 1151649

That’s not an FCD is it?
edit:Sorry, that’s what you said

 

[Atavar]

You could be confusing yourself dealing with ID and OD measurements without taking into account various wall thicknesses and would tend to agree with, now that you have played with measuring instruments for awhile and they haven’t gotten you where you want to be, try the “what actually works” method.

For seating without shaving, you don’t need a monster flare, you need a seating die that keeps the bullet straight.

If the bullet doesn’t match the seater and tries to go in crooked, all the flare in the world might work but as you know, your not going to get that into a crimp die.

View attachment 1151643

This is how little flare I use with my coated 45 ACP rounds, the case on the right is awaiting “crimp” and the one behind it is next for a bullet to be seated.

View attachment 1151644

I am the first guy that tries to get everyone to quantify things but I’d probably suggest you set the calipers down for a little bit and see what actually works in your firearm with the components and tools you have. Then you can go back and measure and record where that is. For some people that easier that going for some number and we are all different.

For crimp, I would suggest doing little more than it takes to “plunk” the round into the barrel. If you lower the crimp die too much, you will swage the bullet, like these that are ruined. Note the base of the bullet has been swaged by the case to a smaller diameter.

View attachment 1151653

If you don’t over do it on the crimp that doesn’t occur.

View attachment 1151654

The one on the bottom here is as far as I would go. After that reasonable accuracy can be tough to get.

View attachment 1151652

Doing so little flare is all well and good, but what happens when you get a case that is .015” longer than what you set the expander up for? Don’t you get a larger flare?

 

[Atavar]

Roll? No, it tapers per Lee.

But I don’t see the FCD’s carbide ring. And of course it’s guts.
View attachment 1151656

And no threads at the top for the adjuster.

 

[CQB45ACP]

Doing so little flare is all well and good, but what happens when you get a case that is .015” longer than what you set the expander up for? Don’t you get a larger flare?

Look at my picture of the case on the Lee stem. You probably don’t have to ram any case all the way to the top/end. But you’re still wrapped around the axle on the long case/short case thing.