.410 not so shabby?

[cluttonfred]

As someone who has always been a fan of smaller calibers and light-shooting guns, I was pleased to find this .410 gelatin test at Brassfetcher.com.

The .410 000 buck seems to have fared very well and would make an effective home defense load.

Suprisingly, the same test showed a .410 rifled slug as much less effective, though the bad guy might eventually die of lead poisoning.

Yes, I know, if .410 is good then 20 is better and 12 is great, but I am wondering what people think about these results?

 

[41magsnub]

If it is all a person can handle it is a lot better than a .22 or a pointy stick.

 

[sm]

Nope,
Not too shabby.

The key to any firearm and loading is knowing what it will do for you in your setting.

I / we have set folks up with .410s and Slugs , as the Doctor , Surgeon and Physical Therapists - finally - approved this for them.
NO Recoil for Neck, Back, injuries and surgeries and Detached Retina.

Rem 1100 is one gun in use by some, other guns include SXS, Single shot, O/U [ skeet barrels from a 3 bbl set] and pumps.

Oh the fella using .410 barrels, off a 3 barrel set for skeet?
6'2" Marine.
Busted neck and back serving in the Sandbox.
My idea to borrow his Uncle's 3 bbl set.
He is the real deal, BTDT. He has other shotguns, weapons , just he will recover, in time, and permanent paralysis is not an option shooting something with recoil.
His pistol, again approved by Doc, a .22 rimfire, and he is allowed to shoot a Marlin 60 in .22.

I keep saying, have something in case one gets down...
History repeats itself, and just like car wrecks , war also returns those that did, but are not able to do all teh Intrawebz sez.

 

[inherentical]

I think the .410 is an expert's gun.

 

[ArmedBear]

There's something to remember about the .410. It's an enduring niche-market round not because of a few showoffs into Skeet shooting, but rather because it has some compatibility with single-projectile centerfire firearm designs. 28 Gauge is a better light round for conventional shotgun use; the .410's great strength is that it will fit where regular shotshells can't. It's a truly GREAT round for UNconventional shotguns.

Consider the non-bulky Saiga 410, the Bond Arms derringers, the T/C Contender, the Taurus Judge, the H&R Tamer (aka NEF Snake Charmer), the Winchester and Marlin lever guns, all in .410, or .45LC/.410 compatible.

None of these are conventional shotgun designs; they're directly descended from centerfire guns. They're not thick and bulky like a 12 Gauge, and they're not designed to swing on a target.

Sure, there are regular shotguns in .410, but arguably, the .410 really shines in these more unconventional (for a shotshell) applications.

 

[sm]

Armed Bear,

Good points.

Re: Expert's gun.

Seriously, I was raised such, and the .410 being referred to as being an "Expert's Gun was not allowed.
I mean it was said, still Mentors & Elder's instilled and passed forward a lot.

Their take, and where I get mine is - Investigate & Verify, what something is designed to do, and what it is spec'd to do.

.410 will throw the same pattern as a 12 gauge. Really!
Load both with a skeet target load of #9 and shoot a pattern board, say at 21 yds, which most folks do that shoot skeet.

Pattern will be the same - the density of pattern will not be.
Understanding pattern density, shot strings, moving targets and all - Investigate and Verify - is the key.

Informed or Educated shooter is a better term IMO.

True.

Back in the day, when lead shot was allowed for waterfowl, some special hunting places only allowed shotguns no bigger than 28 ga, and some only allowed .410.

Bing Crosby is one well known person that had such a place. He and his duck hunted with .410s, or 28 ga - depending on what he said on his place and his buds , like him, said on theirs.

Down here, folks got to saying "An expert will use # 7.5 lead shot, 1 1/4 ozs".

These folks were not informed or educated, they never investigate or verified what their full choked shotguns, they rarely shot actually did with a pattern board, and they did not practice.

Still an expert duck hunter would use 1 1/4 oz of #7.5 shot on ducks.

No. These folks could not shoot, were sky busting, and they were making more hits simply because they were deforming pellets, therefore getting a more open pattern with enough pellets for density to hit a duck.
*LOL*

I and mine were able to assist and educate some folks.
Still I and mine, have many times been back up shooters with a .410, or 28 gauge...
Or just been hunting, and let that Green head get within 25 yards or less, and fell that duck with a .410 - and my preferred load was reloads of #5 shot.

These folks come down, spending money, nice guns, fancy hunting clothes, and some dumb Southern Boy with a .410 fells a duck , and limits out, never missing.

I used whatever was handy, from H&R Topper single shots with fixed full chokes, SKB O/U with fixed skeet chokes, .410 fixed skeet choke barrel for my Citori 3 bbl set, Win 1300, Model 42, 870, Rem 1100...
Heck I don't care, gimme a gun, some shells, and like I said I preferred my reloads of #5 shot [ I like #5 period, no matter the gauge] and I can see 'em, I can fell 'em.

I had one rich feller's daughter, not real happy with daddy.
He was not being a real sportsman.
"Daddy, you are being a jerk, stop it! For $1,000 , if them two [me and a lady] can fell ducks with what they are you using, you owe me $1,000.

Ticked off a daddy, made a daughter happy as me and that lady felled our limit, and did not miss, so one shell per duck.

Daughter made her point, got daddy to listen ( had to go thru his wallet to get him to listen) still he came around, got lessons, gun to fit and all that - and old boy turned into a heck of a nice guy.

That day, changed that fella, how he treated his family, his business, and how he lived life.
He quit being a jerk, and instead a really neat dad, husband, business owner and human being.

Informed and Educated.
Investigate and Verify.

 

[ArmedBear]

Pattern will be the same - the density of pattern will not be.

True.

As is oft repeated here... A shotgun is not a rifle. They're different animals, and different thinking is required.

It also does seem, though, that many .410 shotguns (conventional guns, not the funky stuff I listed above) come with fixed Full chokes. This means that, say at 21 yards, where you'd ordinarily use an IC for a 12 Gauge, you will get the same pattern density with a .410 and a Full choke.

That means that the round will be just as effective on a given target as a 12 Gauge, but you have less room for error. You have to hit the target.

I'm going to "gun" for a hunt test (versatile hunting dogs) next month. I asked what kind of gun to bring and what birds would be used, if there were limits on allowed shot size for safety, etc.

I was told #7.5 is the limit, but to bring a 12 Gauge because it would work better on pheasant, but to use an open choke. Now, to be fair, not everyone was this clueless, but I was surprised at how they didn't seem to "get" that a 12 Gauge with #7.5 through a C or Sk choke won't drop a pheasant any different than a 20 with IC/M -- provided you hit the bird in each case. Lots of people, even experienced hunters who are otherwise pretty sharp, don't seem to think shotgun.

 

[sm]

AB,
Nailed it.

Take a clay, or tennis ball to replicate a quail or dove, and walk up to a pattern board and hold against pattern shot, and one can see "holes" in the pattern density.
This is just stationary "holes".
Moving targets are worse, as not all the shot arrives at the same time.

28 ga is known for its short shot string - meaning more shot arrives at the same time.

.410 is known to have a "elongated" or longer shot string.

Art & Science, seems Brister said it best.

Yep! One can miss with all them pellets...

 

[bigcim]

Armed bear did you go to 4 winds pheasant club

 

[plumberroy]

Steve
Please do my a favor
I come home from work set down to unwind read the net sometimes write my senator and tell him what a D.A. he is. argue my guns are better than yours kinda stuff. drink a glass of pepsi or home made mead (honey wine) I have the freedom to do this stuff (have a gun to brag about ,tell my senator he's a D.A.) becuase of men like the Marine you mentioned above and the sacrifices he makes . Please tell him the next time you see him there is a hillbilly plumber that lives in ohio that says thank you for my freedom I am fore ever Greatful
Roy

 

[Onmilo]

For shooting within 30 meters I sure like the .410 and I am no skeet shooting wizard either.
1 1/8 ounce promotional game load 12 guage loads are cheaper, carry a larger paylod of shot, and will pattern ALMOST as well,,,,,,

 

[classic095]

410

Real men use a .410 for all their shotgunning..

 

[MCgunner]

A .410 was my starter gun at 9 years of age. I killed some dove with it, still remember my first. I even shot a few ducks on the creek with it, some rabbit, some squirrel. But, I graduated to better gauges, 20 and 12, rather quickly. I still have a .410, a contender barrel. My shotguns are all 12s save my 20 gauge double and a 16 single barrel I've had since a kid. I really got little use for the .410 anymore. I know guys that are nuts abut shooting side by side .410s, but I'm not really sure why. They are usually very accomplished shotgunners and I reckon it's to get a little more challenge back into shotgun games or something. Me, I'll take the crutch of having more payload in the pattern. LOL!

For as defensive uses, why handicap myself when my life is on the line? 20 doesn't kick that hard, mine don't, anyway.

 

[classic095]

My defense gun is a COLT 1911A1 .45 Cal with a 15 round extended mag with Speer Gold dot HP ammunition..

If I use a 12 guage for Skeet I feel as though I am cheating.

Try a load of 7 1/2 in a 410 with 7/16ths oz of shot at skeet and trap. that will seperate the men from the boys..

 

[MCgunner]

I've shot some informal trap with a 10" Contender. You gotta be REAL quick on target.

 

[classic095]

410

Had a guy bring the new Taurus Judge in 3 inch 410 to the range, shot from on top of the trap house ,what a hoot.. I did the thing with the TC with the 12 inch barrel in 410 , fun but not recommended..

I own 5 410s . 2 1100,s one winchester, one stevens as pictured above and an old bolt mossberg. Am looking to get the 311 stevens next..

The 1100s are the Sporting with 5 chokes, and the LW in Skeet only.. Love em all..

course for serious play the 12 guage , 1100 Trap T (tournement)gun comes out

 

[MCgunner]

I had an old bolt gun an aunt gave me along with a single shot CVA thing, Italian built, that folded up I traded a guy out of. Both got ripped off when burglers broke in while we were at work. I had my expensive stuff (relative) hidden. I had given those guns to my daughter and the bolt was an heirloom which sorta hurts more than the worth of the gun, which wasn't much. It got my aunt and uncle through the depression with squirrel meat. LOL That was the story, anyway.

My first shotgun was a JC Higgins pump .410. I traded it in on a Savage M340 in .30-30 I really wanted at the time. I sorta wish I had that old JC Higgins back. Sold the 340 to an uncle.

 

[sm]

Remember Stoeger's single shot in .410?

This is the one to open, one retracts the trigger guard.
Not one I recommend for kids, or new shooters, with having to pull trigger guard back to open.

Forearm did not have a screw, like the H&R Topper, just pull back and down, like other break open guns.

We had a snow, and it was rabbit season.
We all had these Stoeger's.

We were all gathered for something else, and one old boy said his kinfolks had gotten in a dozen of these, instead of the four he ordered for his Hardware Store.

Made sense to go buy a Stoeger Single Shot, visit his kinfolks, and check out this old Hardware Store.
These old stores with wooden floor are so neat anyway.

We snagged shells, whatever was handy, and off we go, even the kinfolks that owned this Mom&Pop went with us.

We had more fun with this spontaneous rabbit hunt, with guns we had not shot for patterns or anything.

We all shot, knew about all this, still , just "gimme a gun and some shells" and had a ball.

There were some older folks that lived all near, and it was best they not get out.
So these folks had planned on coming into the hardware store, and we took them what they needed, a few other items from town, took them all this and rabbits too.

You have never seen more appreciative folks. Just the neatest folks.
Snowed in, and doing up rabbit, was just the ticket for curing "cabin fever".

"Well ya'll can come on back and hunt out back anytime ya want!"
Later...weather got nice, and be down that way , you had better stop and say hello to these folks, they would fuss if you didn't.

Just something about a 80 year old women, grinning, during dove season the next year, popping doves with a .410 single shot out back.

"Clothes line attract 'em, I just sit on the porch and pop what I need for the pot, and to keep my line from getting pooped on".

*lol*

You have not lived, until you have dove hunted like this with a 80 year old woman.

She did not miss!

"Well dearie, these old lady aprons are the secret, oh they hold shells, just the dove takes a double take at "this old thing" and that little hesitation is when I shoot.

*grin*